palladium

danke, gleichfalls.

Hallo Kollegen,

habe gestern einen super Link von ageka bekommen, der sich zwar auf gefälschte Silberpandas bezieht, aber, der sicher ein erster Hinweis auch für die Anlage in Palladium Pandas sein dürfte, dort etwas aufzupassen.
So eine Info darf, zumindest in den Threads, in denen es auch um Münzen geht, keinesfalls fehlen.

Aufgrund der niedrigen Auflagenzahlen (& der Sammlerpreise) lohnt sich das Fälschen offenbar, und offenbar ist es auch halbwegs technisch möglich, so komplizierte Produkte nachzuahmen.

Eigentlich wieder ein Argument für die Pd-Maples, denn zumindest momentan habe ich da noch nichts von Fälschungen gehört, so schnell wird es wohl auch wieder nicht möglich sein, welche auf den Markt zu werfen.
Andererseits ist der Palladium Markt wieder so klein, dass Fälschungen hier (noch) eher die Ausnahme sein dürften, ist jedenfalls meine Einschätzung.

Man sollte sich natürlich die Händler, denen man vertraut, vorher genau ansehen, aber auch die Angebote & die Münzen selber (soweit möglich). ...

Ansonsten gilt wahrscheinlich: am besten nie zu billig einkaufen wollen ... Wobei klar ist: Die teureren Angebote in Europa können genauso betroffen sein, wie die von Fernost, da die Händler wiederum die Münzen selber von dort her beziehen.

Hier nun der Link:

http://reviews.ebay.com/How-to…e=BUYGD:CAT:-1:LISTINGS:5

Und der Text (falls er irgendwann mal wieder aus dem Netz genommen werden sollte, im Original):

Zitat

How to spot a counterfeit silver panda
by: poconopenn( 1069)
90 out of 93 people found this guide helpful.
Guide viewed: 1316 times Tags: China silver panda | counterfeit | bullion | coins | fake

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In the last few months, counterfeit 1 oz silver panda coins have flooded the US ebay, especially from the sellers located in China. During last few weeks, the counterfeit pandas also listed at ebay by a few US sellers. Most of those sellers may not even aware that they are helping to spread the counterfeit silver pandas in US. It becomes vital important to provide with some guidelines to spot the counterfeit China silver pandas.

Guidelines for coins and packages:

1. (Updated on 6/6/06, a quicker and easier way to spot a counterfeit pandas without pictures of the genuine coins) In order to prevent counterfeit, China Mints made few subtle changes in the obverse. The temple design was different for different dates. The circular rock fence on the both sides of stairway of temple have different number of posts for each row. For genuine coins, there are six posts in the bottom row for the period of 1983-1985, 5 posts for the period of 1987-1991, 4 posts for the period of 1992-2001, and 3 posts for the period of 2002-2006. All counterfeits, based on the pictures at ebay, have 3 or 4 posts in the first row. Starting 2002, drawings were added to the divider of the stairway in genuine coins, while the counterfeit coins had a smooth surface. In summary, those coins with 4 posts for years between 1983-1991 and 2002-2006 are counterfeit. Those coins with 3 posts for years between 1983-2001 are counterfeit. Those coins with 4 posts, between 1992-2001 may need further examination by comparing pictures with genuine coins as outlined in 3, 4, and 5. There are other design changes made by China Mints for different years, such as, the door to the temple and the number of the beams on top of the door. The counterfeit coins do not match those design changes.
2. The soft plastic pouch should be embossed with rope pattern on the sealed edges. Some, but not all, counterfeit coins have a flattened sealed surface and they are relatively easy to spot. There are different rope patterns for different China Mints. Shanghai Mint has a small and different rope styles vs. Shenyang Mint, while Shenzhen Guobao Mint has its name embossed on two sides of the pouch and the rope pattern is similar to the Shenyang Mint on the other two sides. Make sure the coin received is identical to the picture. There are counterfeit coins sealed in the embossed patterns similar to China Mints.

3. The position of the date on the obverse can be used to further identify the counterfeit coins. For genuine coins, at least two variations of date for BU coins between 1990 and 1999. Shanghai Mint usually has a small date and Shenyang Mint has a large date. The date of counterfeit coins usually is slightly off-position vs. genuine coins, using the stairway of the temple as guidepost.

4. In the majority of counterfeit coins, the 1 in 19xx and 2 in 200x are different from the genuine coins. The tapered tip of 1 in 19xx usually is longer for counterfeit coins vs. genuine for the years before 1990 with the exception of 1987. In 1987 coin, the 7 in 1987 is cured at top for genuine coin, while the counterfeit is straight 7.

5. For genuine coins during the period between 1992 to 1996, all 1 in 19xx are underlined (has a small baseline as part of 1). If you do not see the underlined 1, it is counterfeit. 4 in 1994 and 2004 are also have a underlined base for geniune coin, but not in the counterfeit coins. Unfortunately, if you are a new panda collector, you have no genuine coins to compare with. The websites of pandausa (including all varieties) and pandaamerican (better pictures, but no varieties) provide pictures of genuine coins of all dates. However, the ebay policy will not allow me to make direct link of these non-ebay sites in this guide.

6. Proof coins have a very low mintage, no more than 20,000 for each date, with the exceptions of 1987 and 1989. They do not have varieties for the same date, and therefore, it is relatively easy to spot the counterfeit by comparing the pictures.

7. Genuine 1983-1987 coins have characters on the plaque of the top floor of temple, while the counterfeit coins are blank. It should be noted that all counterfeit coins after 1987 have characters on the plaque, identical to the genuine coins.

8. Starting 2002, all silver pandas have a slanted reeding vs. a straight reeding for year prior to 2002.

9. The weight of double sealed 1 oz panda coin should be at least 38 gm for coin minted between 1987 and 1999, depending on the size and type of soft plastic pouch and hard plastic holder, with a exception of 1993. Weight of 1993 is slightly less then 38 gm due to the small size of hard plastic holder. Between 2000-2006, the harder plastic holder is thicker and, therefore, the weight is slightly higher, more than 39 gm. For 1983-1985, the coin itself should be 27 gm and usually not in the sealed plastic pouch. However, the counterfeit also weighs about 27 gm. Nevertheless, those counterfeit coins are relatively easy to spot. They have a longer tapered tip 1 in the dates. Some counterfeit coins actually weigh about 1 oz. Therefore, the weight of the package can not be used exclusively as the determine factor of the genuineness of the coin. However, if your double sealed coin is weighted less than the weight specified above, it is most likely a counterfeit.

General guidelines:

1. Fixed price is lower than the actual silver value and the S/H charge is extremely high.

2. Seller ID is kept in private and they usually have a low feedback number. The scammer can create feedback and good rating for themself by buying a few inexpensive items, usually non-coin items.

3. Item picture is vague and does not show both sides of the coin.

4. The counterfeit panda coins from China, sometimes, come with a COA issued by a private company. There are official COAs issued by Governor of the Bank of China for proof coins for each year with a statement of mintage and year, in Chinese and English. There is no official COA for BU pandas as suggested by those counterfeit coin sellers.

Hopefully this guide will help you to spot the counterfeit pandas before the bidding and save you the time and energy in trying to recover the loss from the sellers after the winning of a counterfeit panda. The observation made herein is based on the pictures of the counterfeit coins at ebay. There is a very good chance that new batch of counterfeit coins may be different from the current counterfeit. So, do the research carefully before bidding.

Final note, the mintage of pandas are very low vs. other bullion coins. The price is still very low and affordable. Because of their popularity among coin collectors, the pandas become the target of counterfeit, just like US silver trade dollars many years back. If you do the research carefully, you still can find the genuine coins at a very reasonable price. Good luck in your search for genuine pandas.

For disclosure purpose, I have no personal and financial connection to pandausa and pandaamerican mentioned above. I bought few China coins (not panda) from these companies more than 10 years ago.

Guide ID: 10000000000966183Guide created: 05/21/06 (updated 08/15/06)

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Grüsse,
gutso

PPS: Und hier noch der Link zum (echten) Emmitenten, der Bank of China.

Und noch ein Guide, den ageka mir geposted hat ...

Es geht zwar wieder nicht explizit um Pd-Pandas, sondern diesmal um Silber- und Gold-Pandas, aber man sollte diese erst 1/4 Jahr alten Gedanken einmal durchdacht haben ... .

Quelle: http://reviews.ebay.com/Counte…0QQugidZ10000000000935653

Und der Text ohne Abbildungen, falls er mal wieder verschwinden sollte.

Zitat

Counterfeit Pandas, Chinese Silver (and Gold)by: bullioncoins( 128)
306 out of 309 people found this guide helpful.
Guide viewed: 3445 times Tags: silver panda | gold panda | panda | counterfeit | fake

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Bullion coin collectors enjoy Chinese panda coins more than almost any other bullion coin series. However, in the past year, counterfeit panda coins (especially silver ones) have flooded the market. This guide will help you avoid counterfeit pandas.

First, when you are looking at an auction for a panda, make sure that the picture shows the denomination (a number, such as 10 or 50, followed by the Yuan symbol -- ). It is believed that all counterfeit pandas are made in China, and presumably the counterfeiters get in less trouble if they leave off the denomination. As a result, the majority of counterfeit pandas do not have the denomination on them. Note that there are a few legitimate pandas that do not include the Yuan marking (such as the 1982 gold ones, and the 1992 Sino-Japanese one).
Then, check the seller's location. Currently, most fake pandas are sold by sellers in China. There are lots of good sellers in China, and there will likely be some people re-selling counterfeits from other countries, but you need to be especially careful with auctions from China.
Check to see if there is a very low price, but a very high shipping charge. Many (but not all!) of the counterfeit pandas are sold by sellers in China, that have shipping charges that account for 90% or more of the total price.
Check the seller's feedback. If their feedback is private, never buy a Chinese panda from them! While some legitimate sellers have private feedback, and it is often safe to buy other items from such sellers, you can't see the words "counterfeit" or "fake" in private feedback. Also, if their feedback is less than about 99%, check their feedback carefully to see what negative comments there are. Sellers often get undeserved negative feedback, but reading the negative feedback should give you an idea of whether or not counterfeits are likely (for example, complaints of slow shipping may not be a problem, whereas complaints of items not as advertised should be taken as a warning).
Make sure that "plate" or "plated" does not appear in the title or description of the auction. Legitimate sellers that got stuck with a counterfeit panda may state that it is "silver plated", for example, to cover themselves.
If the silver panda is dated 2001 or earlier, the reeded edge should be straight (the side of the coin should look like this: ||||||||||||); if the silver pand is dated 2002 or later, the reeded edge should be slanted (like this: \\\\\\\\\\\\). It is believed that all counterfeits have straight edges, so this is useful in identifying counterfeits from 2002 and later.

See if the item is covered by PayPal Buyer Protection. This is a good indication that the seller is legitimate, and will protect you if the item is counterfeit.
Make sure to pay with a credit card, either through PayPal or directly, or a known escrow service. Never send cash, check, money order, bank wire, or anything except a credit card or known escrow service (one you have heard of before; there are lots of fake escrow services out there). Using a credit card will help ensure that you can get your money back if you get a counterfeit coin.
The presence of a COA (Certiticate of Authenticity) is meaningless. Although real panda coins often include them, some of the counterfeit ones do as well (which may actually be a real COA from a panda with a lower value).

The above tips will help you avoid counterfeit pandas. However, you can't know a counterfeit until you receive it. So if you went through all the above steps, the next thing to do is weigh the coin once you receive it. To do this, you should have a scale that is accurate to 1/10 gram (if you don't have one, don't want to buy one, and have a good relationship with a local jeweler or coin store, you could ask them to weigh it). A scale accurate to 1g can be used for weighing 1oz coins, although 1/10 gram accuracy is better. A 1 ounce silver panda (one from 1989 to present) should weigh at least 31.1g (counterfeits made of copper weigh about 27-28g, and counterfeits with other metals have been seen weighing 21g), although there are reports of a .4g tolerance, which would allow them to weigh as little as 30.7g). Note that it is best to weigh in grams, as it avoids the confusion between troy and avoirdupois ounces (a 1 ounce silver panda weighs about 1.1 ounces on a standard scale weighing in avoirdupois ounces, since precious metals are sold in troy ounces). Note that you should not weigh the plastic that the coin is in. If you do not want to remove it from the plastic, you should take it to a coin dealer to determine if it is counterfeit (even then, many will not be able to make the determination, due to the quality of the counterfeits).

It is possible for a counterfeit silver coin to weigh exactly the same as a real silver coin, but it is not believed that there are any such counterfeit pandas at this time. A counterfeit gold coin, however, will always weigh less than it should (or be larger than it should).

1oz Silver Panda weights, finenesses, and diameters (note that there is discrepancy as to the actual weight and fineness of the 1987 panda)

1983: Proof only, 27g (24.3g of silver), .900 fine silver [no silver marking], 38.6mm
1984: Proof only, 27g (24.3g of silver), .900 fine silver [no silver marking], 38.6mm
1985: Proof only, 27g (24.3g of silver), .900 fine silver [no silver marking], 38.6mm
1986: No silver pandas minted
1987: Proof only, 31.1g or 33.6g, .925 or .999 fine silver [no silver marking], 40mm (possibly 38.6mm)
1988: No silver pandas minted
1989-Present: 31.1g .999 fine silver [marked ".999 1 Oz Ag"], 40mm

Hopefully, this guide will help you enjoy collecting Chinese pandas, without worrying too much about getting caught with counterfeit coins.

Guide ID: 10000000000935653Guide created: 05/12/06 (updated 08/15/06)

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Grüsse,
gutso

jo keine echte münze, auf der rückseite steht doch irgendwas von einer numismatic asc.

@ich

Ist das überhaupt eine Palladium Münze, vergleiche das Original (http://www.rene.finn.de) mit der auf E-Bay die sehen verschieden aus???Na auf E-Bay findet sich für alles ein Käufer!!

Die drucken anscheinend in verschiedenen Formen.

mexx

nach kurzer suche folgendes eruiert: handelt sich wohl um sowas wie die münchen-pandas

verbrochen haben das wohl die:
http://www.money.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

zu irgendeinem jubiläum

Ja, da hat Ich recht schnell was Beispielhaftes rausgekramt, woran man gleich mal testen kann, wie gut die Guides & Warnantennen funktionieren. ...

Abgesehen davon, dass die Medaille nicht so schön gemacht ist, finde ich. ... Ne orientalische Wunderlampe & Chinesische Schriftzeichen.
Das ist bestimmt ein altes Zahlungsmittel aus ATLANTIS ...

Da war neulich auch so ein Israelisches Teil auf Ebay, mit Thema erster Satellit im All, genauso ein Blödsinn, auch wenn Palladium drauf steht & sogar welches drin sein mag.

Sowas kann man sich selber auf Auftrag prägen lassen.
Und dann zur Palladiumnen Hochzeit schenken, aber das wars dann auch schon.

Ich glaube, es ist gut, wenn man da fix die ersten hässlichen Schrecksekunden & Schocks hinter sich bringt, damit die Sache erst recht schnell wieder anfängt Spass zu machen.

Milly, glaubst Du dass die Kookas so einfach in Massen zu fälschen sind?
Die australischen Münzen sind sehr künstlerisch gemacht, finde ich, auch die Lunare, das ist schon recht aufwändig.
Aber,- wo ein Wille ist ...

Grüsse,
gutso

Zitat

Original von gutso
(...)
Da war neulich auch so ein Israelisches Teil auf Ebay, mit Thema erster Satellit im All, genauso ein Blödsinn, auch wenn Palladium drauf steht & sogar welches drin sein mag.

Sowas kann man sich selber auf Auftrag prägen lassen.
Und dann zur Palladiumnen Hochzeit schenken, aber das wars dann auch schon.
(...)
Grüsse,
gutso

Alles anzeigen

So, da ist mir das Ding heute Mittag wieder über den Weg gelaufen .. .
Wollte es doch Euch auch mal gezeigt haben. ...

Grüsse,
gutso

Zitat

Original von ich

Hübsch hässlich

Ja, den sollte man in Nachbarschaft zu dem Satelliten ins All schiessen.

Grüsse,
gutso

PPS: die Pd-Pandas sollen schon molgen heleinschneien.
Fleue mich schon wie ein Schneidel-lein.

Hi, noch als Nachtrag:

habe drüben im Palladium Sammelthread mal ein paar Infos von Platinum Matthey zum Palladium Markt (Nachfrage gesplittet nach Märkten über mehrere Jahre usf.) geposted.

Da ist der Link dorthin!

Grüsse,
gutso

... total neu überarbeitet.

Unter anderem werden jetzt auch Infos zum Pd Maple gegeben.
Schön!

Grüsse,
gutso

... das war aber auch mal nötig.

Die haben schon viel arbeit reingesteckt, wer von denen die hier posten, hat da wohl mitgemischt? Tät mich auch mal interessieren.

Na, wo ist der Deus ex machina? Ob da wohl noch ein Kommentar im Forum von der Adminseite her kommt?

Grüsse,
gutso

ja es ist nur nicht ganz klar, woher die richtwerte kommen. handelt es sich dabei um einen bestimmten händler?

Hab ich auch keine Ahnung HIghtekki, würde aber auf ProAurum tippen, die Listen erinnern mich irgendwie an deren Listen.
Ich benutze das eh nicht, die Richtwerte interessieren eh nur, wenn es konkret wird & dann muss man ja doch die Händler anschreiben oder anwählen oder oder ... .
Hätt ich ignoriert.

Grüsse,
gutso

Hallo Kollegen,

Der Vollständigkeit halber lege ich den Link von neulich auch hier mal rein.

Ich habe Platin, Palladium & Silber Maples nebeneinander auf Alu fotografiert, in Corel verglichen & im Palladium Sammelthread kurz diskutiert.

Für die Sammler der Münzen dieser Edelmetalle ist es evtl. interessant einmal so einen optischen Vergleich zu sehen.
(Von der Dichte der Materialien mal ganz abgesehen).

Grüsse,
gutso

Hallo Leute,

wens interessiert:

Heute Aktion bei westgold inkl. Mwst.16%: 100g Palladium Barren für 1030 €

http://www.westgold.de/

Grüsse,
gutso